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Okay, let's just get this out of the way right now. "The Safety Dance." It would be impossible to hold a conversation about Men Without Hats without mentioning that song, much like it would be impossible to hold a coversation about 80s music without mentioning Men Without Hats.

But, as is so often the case with bands known primarily for just one song (unfair with Men Without Hats, as they had another major hit in the late 80s with "Pop Goes the World" and saw continuing success in markets outside the U.S.'s Billboard's Hot 100), some of their best material went unnoticed. But whether they were hitting the charts, Men Without Hats continued to demonstrate their mastery of the pop hook with songs ranging from the synth-pop grooves of "I Like" from 1982's Rhythm of Youth to the gentle, rolling ballad "You and Me" from 1989's ...In the 21st Century to the guitar driven rock of "KENBARBIELOVE" from 1991's Sideways.

Now, after over ten years of solo works and other projects, brothers Ivan and Stefan Doroschuk are back with the new Men Without Hats album No Hats Beyond This Point, a return to their synth-pop roots. We recently had the opportunity to speak with Stefan, and we found him not afraid to sound off about Apple Computer (specifically, OS X), the music industry, and how he used the Macintosh to pull the new album together.
  

Applelinks: The last Men Without Hats studio album was released back in 1991. Why did you feel that now was the right time to "get the band back together" after all these years.

Stefan: It was a combination of factors. First of all, I now have my own studio, so we don't have to do demos, send them out, get rejected by all the labels--we can just record when we want to (we can leave the labels behind...). Also, about 3 or 4 years ago, I started a MWH website just for fun and got an immediate positive response, encouraging us for sure to keep on making music. The third factor was timing, Ivan and I have spent the last few years making solo records, working with other people--so it just happened that a) we both had the time, b) there was a sort of resurgence of "80s synth bands," and, of course, c) we had a bunch of songs.

Applelinks: Was it mainly that encouragement from fans that lead the new album, No Hats Beyond This Point (NHBTP), back to the synth-pop sound of your earlier material--such as Rhythm of Youth and Folk of the 80s, Part III--as opposed to the guitar driven rock of Sideways?

Stefan: No. NHBTP would have turned out the same. We're not influenced by what other people think or want to hear, that's not the way to make music. Our goal was to do a sort of return to synth based pop, with an updated sound, while still keeping some of the same sounds of our earlier records (achieved by using some of the same synth as on the earlier records).

Applelinks: How has your use of the Macintosh helped you to achieve that sound?

Stefan: Back in 1986, we were using a Mac+ to run our sequences, so we've been Mac aficionados for years. As for our newest sound, it was done with a Pro Tools system and a Mac. As someone who started recording on 2 inch analog tape, moved to the early Sony 48 track digital machines and then went completely digital with Pro Tools, I can say that the all digital Pro Tools system is by far the easiest system to use, as well as being the best sounding.

The Mac has been instrumental in the development not only of our own sound, but it has enabled countless other people/bands to be able to record professional quality audio, people who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford a regular studio (like myself, since we spent the better part of 18 months working on the album), or who would never be able to interest a label to invest that kind of money in their projects (if we would have had to shop a demo around, we would have never even contemplated making another record). As well, for the first time in our band's history, the band owns the album outright, which is no small point. So, in the long run, the advent of computers-recording-music will probably revolutionize the music industry by taking away the monopoly of major labels who now own everyone's records. All thanks to the Mac.

Applelinks: Sticking with your rig for a moment, can you go into a bit more detail about your set-up? What type of Mac(s), synths and other hardware did you use to record NHBTP?

Stefan: I record and mix with a Pro Tools 442 system, one of the early PT systems, running on a Quadra 800. It has a nice full sound and I have pretty much all the plug-ins, although I don't use them all, there are just too many. When you have unlimited digital Focusrite EQs, what other kinds of EQ do you really need? It also has a Lexicon NuVerb card, a beautiful sounding reverb/delay/compressor.

The external hardware that I use are 2 stereo compressors and a Mackie board for preamps. I also used an analog filter on a couple of tracks, it's the only external FX that was used. The keyboards were mostly from the SampleCell card and a whole variety of samples, some of which were samples of the keyboards used on our earlier albums, like the CS-50 from Rhythm of Youth, because that keyboard didn't work 100%. There was also some live Pro 5, a MWH sound staple. I also use a CS-10 for occasional fader control, like track composites or transport controls, but use mainly the on-screen fader controls, I just find it easier, and I rarely if ever do recorded fader moves manually, as is done on automated mixing boards, I write the fader movements on-screen, it's more precise and it's faster to get what you want. All run through an Amcron amp and Paradigm, Tannoy and Acoustic Research speakers.

Applelinks: It must say quite a bit for the Macintosh, then, that you've been able to use an older system to put together such a good sound. Have you had to deck out the Quadra with many upgrades (other than the NuVerb) to handle the work you put it through?

Stefan: The NuVerb is in the expansion chassis, not the Mac. All of the music computing happens outside the Mac, so no, I haven't upgraded anything in the Quadra, there's never been any need to. Personally, I was sonically blown away by the first demonstration that I went to for the Pro Tools system, way back when it was only 4 track. I've worked in analog, with 2 inch tape, then moved to SSL environments and then the early 48 track Sony digital tape recorders and Audiophile digital recorders, and without a doubt, the best sounding system I've ever worked on is the Pro Tools. And, as anyone who works with Macs knows, you only upgrade by necessity or if the upgrade achieves something extra that's worth the price of the upgrade, which is rarely the case. In this instance, I'm still extremely happy with the sound, the way it performs and especially with the possibility of achieving a final mix that's sonically equal or superior to what's out there, or to what I've done in the past. I use digital Focusrite EQs and compressors, Drawmer digital gates and compressors, TC Electronics and Lexicon digital reverbs and a host of other digital effects that do things that aren't available in the analog studio world, so at one point it's not about what new software you have, but what you know about music.

Applelinks: Do you use the Macintosh for other aspects of album creation, such as design and packaging (I guess that would be more a question for Ivan, seeing that he created the artwork himself)?

Stefan: We use nothing but Macs, have since the Mac+, and now I use a G4. The cover was done with Photoshop and the packaging was done on Quark XPress, but it was quarked at the pressing plant because it was a special cover configuration. The website was done with Dreamweaver and Flash, with a little Cleaner to convert the sound files and Fetch to upload the files. I don't use any Microsoft software because none of it works properly, I'm not sure if that's because Microsoft can't write software properly for Macs, or because that's how that stuff just is, which is what I suspect.

At the time we first started using Macs, other kinds of computers with different operating systems couldn't do music applications, so it was an easy choice to make. PCs have just started to catch up, but I doubt they will ever be as easy to use as the Mac, let alone that the Windows operating systems and accompanying hardware are very ugly.

Applelinks: Have you upgraded to OS X yet? If so, what do you think of the new interface and features?

Stefan: I've upgraded only because I bought a digital camera that requires OS X, otherwise, I never would of done it. In fact, I only use it for the camera. It has a loud and ugly interface with all of those huge icons at the bottom, and if I have a non-X program (98% of my stuff), it opens in classic mode anyways, which is absurd, so I use up a lot more memory having the two OSs open, which is bullshit. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, but now it's broke for sure and needs to be fixed. Oh yeah, and I can't surf the internet with X because it was too stupid to find all of the prefs that were used by OS 9, and I can't figure out how to get it to work (and I'm no computer dummy!). So if Apple can't make X easier/better/nicer than 9, why bother? I don't know why they even felt like they had to change everything. 9 looked fine, worked fine and nobody was even asking them to change anything. X is a complete disaster, 0 out of 10.

Applelinks: Well, while we're railing against Apple, have you had a chance to check out the iTunes Music Store? Also, what's your stance on the copyright battles between the RIAA and the internet music services such as Napster and Audio Galaxy?

Stefan: I think that the general concept of the Apple music store is a good one, although buying MP3s for me would be a waste of time. A typical stereo 5 minute AIFF file is 50MBs, whereas the same file in MP3 format is more like 3-5MBs, so a lot of information is lost and I can certainly hear it. They're all right for small computer speakers, but no one's going to buy MP3s to burn and play on a good home stereo system; that's absurd. Like, who's going to say to their date, "Hey baby, want to come over to my place and listen to my MP3s on my tiny computer speakers?" Somehow, I don't think so.

Applelinks: Yes, Apple has thrown aside the whole "gettin' it on" aspect of music, but so has the entire RIAA. Speaking of that, what's your stance on the copyright battles between the RIAA and the internet music services such as Napster and Audio Galaxy?

Stefan: Back in the old days of vinyl singles, especially in England, record labels would print whatever the number it is for going gold, I think it was 50,000 at the time, and give the singles away, thereby creating an instant smash because their single would debut at number one because of the huge volume of "sales" in the first week, probably not without a little payola to the chart makers as well. So, at that time, around the late 50s and 60s, no one was making any money off of singles. If the artist made any money, it was way after when albums would sell because of the single. Pretty much the same thing happened to us. We sold 3,000,000 singles of Safety Dance, and got paid maybe 10 cents a single, probably a lot less when you factor in all the small print of the contract, video costs, promo costs... So, artists have pretty much never made any money off of singles, and it's no different now. The RIAA is only protecting itself and the labels who actually own all the albums, and either way, the artist gets nothing, so I'm not all that bothered about their lawsuit. If anything, Napster is doing musicians a favor because most people who download MP3s are people who wouldn't buy all the albums that they download anyways. Like, as if a college student who downloaded 500 songs has the money to buy all of those songs/records. So, in my book at least, I'd prefer that someone who can't afford my CD or is just the type of person who wouldn't buy CDs would at least have access to my music, since most of the airwaves are controlled by the major labels and aren't even accessible to a band like Metallica. Who knows, maybe some of them will buy it or maybe even a friend of theirs hears it and wants to buy it. As well, if 5,000,000 download my album, I think I'd be able to make some money touring anyways, drawing from that huge pool of listeners, maybe it also helps generate pressure at the radio stations, maybe I can sell them 100,000 t-shirts... So I tend to have the view that the MP3 cat is out of the bag, so we might as well find the positives and move forward.

Applelinks: Do you agree with bands such as Metallica, The Red Hot Chili Peppers and Linkin Park (or, at least their management) that Apple's iTunes Music Store is causing people to consider buying individual songs only, thereby killing the album format?

Stefan: I think that what's killing the album format is the lack of enough good songs on albums these days to warrant their purchase. iTunes is only doing what the music business has been doing for decades: selling singles without giving the artist anything, or extremely little. That's what they're pissed at. I don't know what percentage of the 99 cents goes to the artist, but I'd bet it's still not more than 10 cents. From what I understand, iTunes is selling mp3s, which to me is ridiculous and absolutely no threat to a well produced album in full stereo, where a CD song has 10 times more information than an mp3...that's enormous! Plus the CD and cover; in my book, that's not even a fair comparison.

Applelinks: That being said, if you were to use Apple's "digital hub" to burn your own mix CD, what songs from the 80s would you definitely put on it?

Stefan: From the 80s, I'd probably put things like B-52s, Devo, Kraftwerk (Computer World, a seminal electronic album), The The, The Romantics, Lena Lovich, Nena (I forget her last name, the one who did "99 Luftballoons," that whole album was great), BB Gabor, Blondie, Bowie (Low, another seminal electronic record, more for the style than the technology), and, of course, my man, Lou Reed, whose album The Blue Mask was perhaps the most under-rated album of all time, and really opened up my mind to see music as only having the boundaries that you give it, where new musical discoveries become possible, if only you care to look.

Applelinks: The song "Telepathy" from No Hats Beyond This Point harkens back to The Buggles with the lyric, "Internet killed the video star/Telepathy killed the internet star." A simple reference joke or a prediciton for the evolution of music?

Stefan: As Ivan put it, "The internet is the material realization of our desire to be telepathic."
  

To read more about Men Without Hats and learn what they've been up to, visit their website at www.menwithouthats.com. There, you can purchase their new album, No Hats Beyond This Point, and obtain information on where you can pick up other albums from their catalog. Samples of three tracks are available for download, and you can order various T-shorts sporting the Men Without Hats logo, which has pretty much become an icon of the 80s.

Of course, "The Safety Dance" has become an 80s icon itself, assuring Men Without Hats of their place in pop culture history. We thank Stefan for sharing that history with us, and wish him and the band success with the new album and whatever projects the future brings...especially those projects created on the Macintosh.